ML Got a recipe- great talk, great talkers, great topics, that’s what Off The Record is all about. And as we welcome our first guest I have got to say Congratulations, what an enormous accomplishment. A.J. Eathorne, the co-winner of the 1998 LPGA Qualifying School, that means you’re gonna play with the big guns.

A.J. You betcha!

ML Congratulations, we will be following your career. We appreciate you following it here to OTR.

Lots of great things to talk about - by a guy we welcome back. One of our favorite guests, Nigel Bennett, star of Psi Factor: Chronicles of the Paranormal.

NB Yeah.

ML I screwed it up last time and you were mad. But I got it right this time - Chronicles of the Paralegal. That’s it.

NB (laughs)

ML And it’s great to welcome a guy I call Smitty. Now, I just thought I was giving you the business because I figured no one ever calls you Smitty. But, in your hometown, D.K. Smith, you are known as Smitty.

DS Homeboy, that’s right. I’m gonna call you my homeboy now.

ML No, I can call you anything I want, but it doesn’t work the other way. This is not a barter deal here.

Okay, lets talk about: Sex. It sells. But the question we want to ask on this show is: At what price? Jason Williams suggests; when it comes to the NBA lock out it’s not the color of the money, it’s the color of the players’ skin that is shaping public opinion. And we will discuss MVP. Writers have got to decide, is it Most Valuable Player or Most Valuable Press.

But first of all, the Kansas City Chiefs, it all unraveled Monday night against the Denver Broncos. They were getting beaten. They took five unnecessary roughness penalties in the last few minutes. The key was linebacker Derrick Thomas. He is probably going to go to the Hall of Fame. He took three penalties. He was suspended for one game and apologetic for his actions.

(Clips of Derrick Thomas and coach Marty Schottenheimer giving press statements)

ML It looks to me like Marty Schottenheimer is washing his hands of this whole thing. The coach of a football team has lost control. Is he to blame at all?

NB Yes, I think so. Absolutely. The coach has responsibility for the behavior of the team. He could have pulled those guys off. If he could see, and everyone else could see what they were doing, he could have pulled them off the field. They had lost the game anyway at that point. It is not as if they were going to win. He should have pulled them off and stopped it. And he didn’t.

DS You’ve gotta remember sometimes that football is an aggressive sport. It is a violent sport. You have those “overpaid babies” is what we sometimes call them. They get out there and their emotions get the best of them. They were embarrassed. They got blew out. They had just lost five games straight. It was Monday night and Denver was just dominating them. They just didn’t want to take that butt-whuppin like a man. Derrick just let his emotions get the best of him. That happens. Some coaches say they cannot control that.

ML So you don’t blame Marty Schottenheimer?

DS I don’t blame him for that, but he needs to be held responsible.

A.J. I think that the coach had a lot to do with it, too. If you are out there, showing off your emotions, that’s one thing. Really getting into the game. Not really realizing what you are getting yourself into. But I think the coach has to see that from the sidelines and say “Listen, we need to take that guy out. He needs to go back and sit in the locker room and cool off.”

NB This isn’t the only time this has ever happened. In many different sports, it’s not just in football. It’s in hockey; it’s in all sorts of games. You will find that when a team is being blown out, suddenly the enforcers go on. Suddenly, you have punches being thrown. Suddenly, you have people committing personal fouls. It’s planned, in my opinion. It’s planned.

ML In hockey they address that. If a guy leaves the bench to do something that you are not supposed to do, which is, leave the bench. Then the coach gets suspended too.

NB Yeah, absolutely.

ML Shouldn’t Marty Schottenheimer have to be suspended or pay some kind of fine? The thing that really gets me is watching him criticize his players. Why isn’t he being criticized?

NB Yes, he talks about being embarrassed and angry. What he is most embarrassed, most angry about is losing the game so badly. He is not embarrassed and angry about his players.

DS I believe it is up to the owners. It is not up to the league but up to the owners because he is their representative on the field and in the locker rooms. I believe that the owners of the football team should fine Marty Schottenheimer. He has to be held responsible. That is why they hired him, to coach this football team. He manages this football team and he needs to be held responsible. But, you know he has these guys out there, he’s paying them 3 or 4 million dollars. Once they get out there on the field, there is not much you can do.

ML But, is it true? You have stood on the sidelines. You have been there on the bench. You have been in the locker rooms. Is it true that coaches get just as angry as the players and they want to see that pound of flesh being taken out there. So, Schottenhiemer might on the one hand say, ”Yeah, I’m embarrassed by it”, But he’s just as mad as anyone. Don’t coaches like to see that extra hit when their team is down and getting embarrassed?

DS Well, yes, they like to see it, but the only thing was Derrick got caught.

NB He broke the eleventh commandment: Thou shalt not be caught.

DS I believe if he didn’t get caught, if it weren’t right there for the world to see on Monday night football, maybe Schottenheimer would not have fined him.

ML That’s the thing I see. I see coaches inflaming the players. “Get out there, punish ‘em, hit ‘em, hit ‘em.” And then when a guy steps over the line a bit, they wash their hands of it.

NB It’s hypocrisy. Pure hypocrisy on the part of the coaches.

DS I don’t want to get off the subject here but I think that a player such as Brian Cupps, when he is with the Chicago Bears or with the Dolphins. You need a guy like that out there on the field. You are gonna know that he plays with a lot of emotions. And that sometimes he is gonna get out of control and that fuels the rest of the ball club. That gets your team fired up and they feed off of that. And so to say it is good on this hand but then it got out of hand and it’s bad. You have to take the good with the bad.

A.J. I think it is the coach’s responsibility. To say they have one personal foul, that’s fine. But to have three of them out there, that’s a little too much. You need to say listen, there is something wrong out there, that player is way too fired up and it’s now hurting the ball club.

NB It is a planned tactic. That is the point. It is a planned tactic. And I think that your point about the owners is really important. Basically, the coach does what the owners tell him to do. They are the ones who own the team. They want the victory. They want to make the point. They don’t want to have their faces rubbed in the dirt at the end of the game. So, basically we have to take it steps back from the players, from the coaches, to the owners and find out where the true responsibility lies.

ML It all goes back to money, which is what you were talking about. And what sells more than anything else - one little word here, three letters: SEX. And when we return, for good or for bad, this is the future of women’s sports, some would say. (Shows clip of bikini clad volleyball players) When we come back, let’s talk about that three letter word.

Commercial break

ML I’m disappointed in all of you. Ratings is what this is all about and look at you. You are all overdressed. We couldn’t play beach volleyball, if we wanted to, because we have way too much clothes on. The FIBV, the governing council for beach volleyball, has fined five teams: Russia, Brazil, Croatia, Bulgaria and Italy for refusing to wear skintight swimsuit type uniforms. I am quoting now as you look at Olympic style, which is obviously not playing up the sexuality, contrast that to beach volleyball. Now listen to these quotes: “Players’ shirts did not fit the body and were too loose.”

NB (laughs)

ML But, while we laugh at beach volleyball, beach volleyball is an Olympic sport and beach volleyball is attracting sponsors. Anything wrong with that?

NB (still laughing) Not a thing!

DS Not a thing, That little clip I just saw - that looks good to me! (laughs) I’ll grab a brew, sit down and watch that myself.

NB Part of the business, that’s what it is, part of the business. It’s money, again. You have pretty girls wearing skimpy swimsuits playing beach volleyball; it’s going to attract a lot of people to the event.

ML So, A.J. do you want to beat these guys with a stick, or a golf club?

A.J. No, not quite yet, but I think that there comes a point to here a sport is a sport and you don’t need to have the special uniform or the tightness or whatever to make you play good. Sure, it sells. But then so does Olympic style volleyball in the court, not on the beach. But, I don’t think it’s right to make them wear skintight stuff just because it sells. That would be like making golfers wear skintight golf shirts.

ML Okay, let's just look at your sport and let’s contrast it to tennis. Because tennis is a sport that has unabashedly sold the sexuality of some of it’s players. Some of them very young. Players like Martina Hingis and Steffi Graf are appearing in all kinds of magazine. Cheryl Swopes, of course, has appeared on the covers of many magazines for the WNBA, and there is Anika Sorenson who is a very attractive woman and I don’t think has ever played up her sexuality and her appeal to men. Who is right and who is wrong?

DS I’m gonna stick to the two words A.J. said: play good. If you are playing good, it doesn’t matter whiter you have on. If A.J. went out on the course and she was wearing a bikini and a thong, and she’s hitting that ball, what would people have to say?

NB Golf is an interesting sport to choose because golf has a dress code. Every golf course you go to has a dress code and that’s part of the tradition. Men golfers on the PGA tour are not allowed to wear shorts. They have to wear long pants. It doesn’t matter how hot it is, you are not allowed to wear shorts.

DS That’s pretty smart. It does distract from the sexuality to the sport.

ML On one hand You say that we should be taken seriously for what we do, but if the possibility were there for you to earn more money - if you are just starting out your career and the money sounds enormous. If the possibility were there through increased sponsorship, would you be willing to lessen the dress code and allow players to wear less?

A.J. Actually, on the women’s tour they have loosened the dress code a great deal. I mean, it used to be that you had to wear shorts down to your knees and you had to wear a collar and sleeves. But, they have changed that, for the marketability of it. Girls have a lot shorter shorts out there and skimpy tops. I sure it does sell, mostly to the people who don’t play golf. But, in the end it doesn’t really make a difference to the players. As long as you are comfortable out there. I think that is one thing maybe with beach volleyball is, some of the people are very comfortable in swimsuits, playing. But, on the other hand, if they are not comfortable, they are not going to perform.

ML I think that there is an undeniable link in sports between the sexuality and the aggression. There are all kinds of examples. One way in which we see it, is in people overstepping the boundaries. I want to talk to you about a guy who’s name was in the news: Juan Hower. A great player in the NBA. A great player in college. A woman charged him with sexual assault. The charges were never made. He ended up suing her to clear his reputation. The issue really is, can a player ever actually clear his reputation?

NB I don’t think any public figure can clear their reputation once it’s been soiled by that sort of accusation. There have been lots of examples in my business; Eric Neagler was accused of sexual assault on a child. It was all thrown out of court, but I am certain his career suffered as a result of that.

DS It’s tough. You think of the name Pete Rose and the first thing that comes to mind right now is gambling. That was so many years ago. It’s tough to get it back, once you’ve been +there+ and then something happens. Rather the person is guilty or not, that is what will always stick in the public’s mind.

ML Who is to blame for that?

DS Who’s to blame? You want me to tell you who’s to blame?

ML Yes, unless you are saying it is me.

DS Media is to blame. Media and public image - we create these monsters. We put them on this pedestal. Just because they can hit a baseball or hit a golf ball or catch a football, we put them on a pedestal. We create this monster. And sometimes, if they don’t have a good grounding, a good foundation when they were growing up, they feed into that. They start to believe in it.

ML Do you guys buy that? Do you agree with it?

A.J. Yes.

NB Absolutely.

ML But don’t you love the pedestal, when you are up there? Doesn’t the pedestal make you money? Isn’t it sometimes the price you pay for all that fame, the fact that, yeah sometimes you are publicly exposed too much? But it makes a lot of guys a lot of money.

DS Yes, it does. But you have to take the good with the bad. You have to be responsible enough to take that on.

A.J. Yes, and I think a lot of the thing now in the media is that if you do get tossed down a level, if you do get accused of something. The big part is getting those people back up. You make an effort to improve your self image, or improve your self through the media again, to say “No, I didn’t do it” or to say “I will try to make it right again” It’s those people who are trying to work their way back up through the system, that’s who can say “I’m an okay person” Like Pete Rose. he is saying “Yeah, I gambled but I’ m okay now.”

NB But he will never be in the hall of fame.

A.J. Yeah, but he is at least changing, he’s trying.

ML I don’t think Pete Rose is a great example because he did do what he was accused of.

NB But, in a way it’s not fair. You’re right, sports personalities, sports celebrities, are where they are because they play a game really well. And, with that, they are suddenly made into role models. Which is really unfair because that’s not what they’re good at, being role models. They are good at sports.

ML Well, some of those athletes are playing their games, and some athletes aren’t. Like guys in the NBA. When we return, Jason Williams, who has been a great guest on this show, says the lockout is a waste of time. He says the fans won’t forgive the players. Not for being too greedy, but for being too black.

(Commercial break)

ML NBA, the lockout continues. A lot of us pretty upset about that. A lot of us saying, “Who cares. They make too much money.” The question is - public opinion, the Chicago Bulls, of course, were the last team to win the championship. It might be a long, long time before we see that kind of celebration again. Jason Williams from the New Jersey Nets, he is a free agent now, had some really interesting points to offer. I think he is a one of the most intelligent players in all of pro sports. Here is a quote from him. He said that public opinion is not necessarily on the players’ side because “People just don’t want to see big black guys complaining about money”.

NB Well, last time I looked, not all NBA players were black, for a start.

ML Sure, the two guys on the end of the bench aren’t black.

NB Yeah, the two guys on the end of the bench aren’t. And for me it’s the same as in the baseball lockout, one set of rich guys arguing with another set of rich guys over who’s gonna be the richest. And there will be a backlash against that because the public frankly doesn’t care. These guys would pay; there are people on the streets who would give their leg to earn the minimum salary in the NBA. And they will never earn that much money. So, when someone is on a contract for multi-million dollars per year, the man on the street really doesn’t care.

DS Well, we say that because we are not really in that position. We say how we think players should act because you don’t have that kind of money. But, once you are in that position, it’s a different story. I’ve said I love football, I would have played the game for free, but I found out that they were paying. So now that’s a bigger thing. Once I found out that they were paying, I started to get into it a little more. And then I said, Hey, I’m doing more than that guy, and he is getting more. So, once again, the money aspect has been blown out of proportion.

ML But, the question is - the point he makes, and let’s personalize it: do people look at you, on the street, differently? You used to drive a nice car, a Mercedes Benz. Do people look at you differently because you are a black man who’s an athlete, driving that Mercedes Benz, rather than a white guy?

DS Yes, they do.

ML So, do you buy what Jason says? And, to be frank, I believe a lot of what he says. I believe there is a racial issue here. Do you agree with it?

DS I agree with Jason. It is true. I think the lock out has a lot to do with control, too. Here they are these black guys, earning all this money. They are controlling the sport. They are controlling our ability to watch a game that we love. People may be a little uncomfortable with that.

NB I think it has to do with the one great growth industry in sports, and that is sports agents. They are a huge growth industry. And, for me, it is sports agents who are causing this problem at the moment. Every sports agent looks around at all the other players of similar caliber to the players that he represents and says “I want more, I want more, I want more”. And, you know there is a limit. How much money is there? There is a limit.

DS That is true too. I don’t understand these agents. Sometimes agents are the ones who have guys holding out. The team offers five million but you want him to hold out for six million. That agent is saying well another million that would give me another fifty or sixty thousand.

ML Now, hold on. Hold on. I don’t buy that, blaming the agents. Because the agent are the extension of the player.

NB No, no, no…

ML And you know what, if you don’t like what your agent does, if your agent says I’ve got an offer for five million, but I’m gonna hold you out for six million. If you want to go play, then tell your agent to go to hell, and go play.

NB But then your agent turns around and says, "Well I don’t want to represent you anymore".

ML So, then you go get a new agent. He’s your agent. You’re not his player.

NB I have an agent, you know. And I have to keep; reminding myself that he is working for me, I’m not working for him.

DS At some point the agents, they do work for you. They do help you out, getting you some endorsements that you didn’t know about. They get you some shoe deal, or a Coca-Cola commercial. They do help you out. You don’t want to lose him there. But, when it comes to the field, the players need to be a bit more in control.

ML I say a player has to stand behind anything his agents says, because that agent represents him. And if you don’t like the way that he or she is representing you, get a new one. If your agent, Nigel, is out making statements about you. Saying I’m holding my guy off. My guy thinks he should be the star of that show. And you don’t like what he’s saying…

NB But he doesn’t do that.

ML But if he did you would fire him.

NB But he does what I tell him to do.

ML And if he didn’t, what would you do?

NB Well, I’d go somewhere else.

DS I wish that everyone had the courage to be their own agent. I was my own agent. I eliminated the middleman. I’m not gonna give you some of nothing anyway, so it don’t matter. But eliminate the middleman and you have more control.

ML A.J., do you have an agent?

A.J. Not yet, I just starting working on it actually. It’s just interesting, looking from one side to the other. Trying to check out, like these guys say, it’s the agent’s fault or whoever’s fault it is. Even with the basketball players, everyone is trying to get what they feel they deserve and that’s just causing a big scuffle.

ML Everybody just wants a bigger piece of the pie.

NB But how much money do you need, as a person, in your life. How much money, how many 10 million-dollar seasons do you need?

ML You should ask the owners. I think it’s just cutting up the pie. I’d just as soon the players had it as the owners. Let’s take a break. And as we go to break we want to tell you that when we return we will talk about that race in the National League for MVP. The question is, will voters be colorblind?

(Commercial break)

ML So, the MVP. Maybe the most intriguing voting of all time. IN the National League the vote will come down next week. Let’s vote, and then let’s talk about why we would vote that way. Mark McGuire or Sammy Sosa. Who?

DS Sosa

NB Sosa

AJ MacGuire

ML Why Sosa?

Ds MVP is Most Valuable Player to your team. Sosa was more valuable to his team because his team made it to the playoffs. They had a shot at the playoffs. MacGuire’s team, he hit all those home runs but his team didn’t go anywhere. So, I don’t feel he deserves to be MVP.

NB Yes, I agree completely. Sosa’s overall record is much better than MacGuire’s.

ML His team’s overall record was better than MacGuire’s.

NB And his personally. The only area that he wasn’t ahead of MacGuire in was in the home run race.

ML A.J. you can’t always hold a guy’s team’s performance against him. Isn’t it possible that Sosa plays for a better team?

AJ I would think so. I mean, it’s a better organization than MacGuire’s but MacGuire just had that fire, as a person. He was the most valuable person, as a whole, he was the one that stole everyone’s attention. When he went around those bases and him and Sosa hugged, that was amazing.